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27th Sep 20 4:37 PM
TopGun2
Posts 310
Can we talk about the handball rule we have now?
Obviously I'm annoyed about the penalty against Spurs today, but we all know there have been plenty of other ridiculous penalties given recently. The referees are just applying the laws as they're written and as they're directed to but is there anyone here who thinks the laws are right as they are currently being applied?
 
27th Sep 20 4:52 PM
Boston2017_2nd
Posts 23
It?s a ridiculous Penalty
Any handball in the penalty area should only be counted if it?s intentional
 
27th Sep 20 5:42 PM
TopGun2
Posts 310
I actually think that's still what they're trying to say, they just have no idea how to word it so that someone sticking their arms out wide to make a cross harder gets penalised but someone coming down from a jump whilst getting shoved in the back isn't penalised.

I think it's a shame that VAR and ever more TV coverage means they have to try and be extra specific instead of allowing officials to interpret what was actually going on. If they left it at 'deliberate, which could include spreading arms wide to block the ball' or something like that then it'd be so much better.
 
27th Sep 20 7:18 PM
roland68
Posts 587
Have the rules changed this season? There seem to be a lot of similar decisions being given against the defender this season.. I've not been watching English Premier League games recently to have seen these incidents, but, it's been in the news and on social media a lot recently.
 
27th Sep 20 7:37 PM
TopGun2
Posts 310
Quote:
Originally posted by roland68
Have the rules changed this season?


Yes, they changed the rules to say that, basically, any time the ball hits your arm when your arm is away from your body or above your shoulders then it's handball. Doesn't matter if it's a ricochet from someone else, or if it's whacked at you from a yard away.
 
27th Sep 20 10:42 PM
Boston2017_2nd
Posts 23
So any time a defender will jump up arms will be away from body
That?s how mechanics of human body jumps are

Let alone the ball hit Tottenham?s player arm from the back so he didn?t even see the ball how would that be intentional

Stupid rule
 
28th Sep 20 12:14 AM
robbiejlove
Posts 37
I've always said that refereeing in the Premiership is substandard compared to the product that it's become. It's been a problem long since before VAR was introduced. What revolutionized the English top level game, IMO, was the introduction of the top class foreign players who raised standards at the dawn of the Premier League era in quality and professionalism in the 90's. I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to referees, and the best referees sourced globally to improve the standards. The Premier League is no longer the place for top English players, but a place for top players, full stop.

In saying that, can't necessarily blame the referees here per se. The current rules around the handball in the box is a joke. As well as that joke penalty today, my team Liverpool got a joke penalty against Leeds, where the ball took a massive ricochet onto Kochs hand.
 
28th Sep 20 8:56 AM
roland68
Posts 587
Quote:
Originally posted by TopGun2
Yes, they changed the rules to say that, basically, any time the ball hits your arm when your arm is away from your body or above your shoulders then it's handball. Doesn't matter if it's a ricochet from someone else, or if it's whacked at you from a yard away.


It seems then that it's all too easy to get awarded a penalty this season. If the ball hits someone's hand/arm when clearly the defender had no chance of avoiding it or if it didn't prevent any goalscoring opportunity then there shouldn't be a penalty, in my opinion. I thought it was ok as it was in previous seasons.
 
28th Sep 20 9:46 AM
Somerb
Posts 5
I am a Leeds fan so I'd nod to robbiejlove's comment re the penalty vs Liverpool, off the knee onto the hand...

I don't agree with the rule, but I think there are some reasons that could be seen as benefits:

It should provide more consistency across those kinds of decisions by limiting the space for interpretation
It protects the referees because it reduces the judgement involved, that's the rule, everyone knows it's the rule intent or not, so as we are doing here (predominantly) we are criticising the rule and not the referees application of the rule
It has the potential to help / hinder all teams equally
How do you decide a natural position consistently? It changes depending on what the player is doing
It's simpler, easier to reach a concensus, did it hit the hand or not?

My main problem with it is that it's unreasonable / impossible for a defender to play properly with arms behind backs or glued to their sides.

I think another problem comes if players begin to try and take advantage of it, playing intentionally for handballs.

The referee is being paid to use their interpretation, if we are going to make everything black and white why bother even having one? We should be happy to take their judgements on handballs and intent and naturalness of body position, and if we disagree that's just the way things go sometimes and we have to accept it and move on.
 
28th Sep 20 11:54 AM
TopGun2
Posts 310
Quote:
Originally posted by robbiejlove
I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to referees, and the best referees sourced globally to improve the standards. The Premier League is no longer the place for top English players, but a place for top players, full stop.


I like this idea. Exactly as you said if it's the best league in the world with the best players in the world, why not try and get the best officials in the world as well?

Also agree with the other bit you said about this current problem being more about the rules than the officials.
 
28th Sep 20 11:57 AM
TopGun2
Posts 310
Quote:
Originally posted by roland68
It seems then that it's all too easy to get awarded a penalty this season. If the ball hits someone's hand/arm when clearly the defender had no chance of avoiding it or if it didn't prevent any goalscoring opportunity then there shouldn't be a penalty, in my opinion. I thought it was ok as it was in previous seasons.


I think the reason they changed it was to address the situation where a winger is trying to put a cross in and the full back has his arms spread wide to make it harder for the cross to get past him. With the old rules if the cross hit his arm then it was 'ball to hand' and therefore deemed not intentional and therefore not a foul. The rule changes was attempting to say if you stretch your arms out to make yourself bigger then it can be classed as deliberate.

I like that rule change but the way they've worded it basically now covers every case where the defender isn't running around like a penguin.
 
28th Sep 20 1:42 PM
Trickyuk
Posts 37
Quote:
Originally posted by TopGun2
I think the reason they changed it was to address the situation where a winger is trying to put a cross in and the full back has his arms spread wide to make it harder for the cross to get past him. With the old rules if the cross hit his arm then it was 'ball to hand' and therefore deemed not intentional and therefore not a foul. The rule changes was attempting to say if you stretch your arms out to make yourself bigger then it can be classed as deliberate.

I like that rule change but the way they've worded it basically now covers every case where the defender isn't running around like a penguin.


It is a fine line but it has now gone too far. We need to use some common sense. There are obvious natural hand positions people use moving and jumping which we all know, yes there is a grey area but i would rather have some disputed decisions rather than hand ball being given when someone headers a ball onto the back of your arm when you are facing away from the ball.

Right now I would be getting as many crosses into the box and telling my team to header the ball at defenders unless they fell they can score.
 
28th Sep 20 10:07 PM
Lovemaster
Posts 483
The only thing I can say is that It's the same for both sides, one day you might profit from this, the next, you may not!
Whether It may seem controversial at the time, referees are only following guidelines placed before them.
It may turn out to be more of a skill to strike the ball off of a players arms....than to try and hit the target at times.
 
29th Sep 20 7:22 PM
Hoopie
Posts 180
When you have subjective decisions decided by absolute technology it will always fall apart.

Goal line technology works as it is either over the line or not. Notwithstanding the miss from last season.

Offside technology close to working, but I am not fan of armpit rules. They should change it to feet, rather than body parts that can touch the ball without it being a foul. Anyone ever tried to control a ball with their armpit and the ball not hitting the arm, just about impossible?

Fouls - one mans foul is another mans good challenge, leave it to the ref

Handball - Saurez style goal line saves then fine, all others leave to the ref.

Dives - Instant red card. If only picked up after the game then still a ban. Also remove any pundit that sprouts "He had the right to go down" or "He felt contact so went down". Absolute tosh, it is cheating, nobody should have the right to cheat. Red card any pundit that says it. In a few weeks we'll have zero diving and some decent pundits.
 
29th Sep 20 7:44 PM
TopGun2
Posts 310
Quote:
Originally posted by Hoopie
Anyone ever tried to control a ball with their armpit and the ball not hitting the arm, just about impossible?


Just to be picky on this one, those armpit ones are actually shoulders but a line to the ground from the shoulder is always going to go through the armpit. I've seen plenty of freestylers controlling balls with their shoulders.

Still agree with most of what you said though
 
29th Sep 20 8:15 PM
Hoopie
Posts 180
Quote:
Originally posted by TopGun2
Just to be picky on this one, those armpit ones are actually shoulders but a line to the ground from the shoulder is always going to go through the armpit. I've seen plenty of freestylers controlling balls with their shoulders.

Still agree with most of what you said though


When does a shoulder become an arm, especially when your arm is horizontal? Doctors would argue with a ref on this one.

I doubt the guys at Stockley Park actually know the answer.
 
17th Oct 20 3:05 PM
robbiejlove
Posts 37
Glad to see now that the handball issue has been resolved that the elite PL referees are showing just how good they are. VAR is working exactly as you would hope. Actually, there's nothing wrong with VAR per se, more those that are utilizing it. Have to say, not sure what Calvert-Lewin's been at during lockdown but it's worked!
 
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